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-   -   MIDI and/or CV output to 'the World' (http://www.five12.net/showthread.php?t=3546)

eenixon 01-15-2018 10:55 AM

MIDI and/or CV output to 'the World'
 
I've done a bit of poking around and haven't found an obvious answer so here I am. I'm interested in whether there's a way to get MIDI or CV data as Numerology conceives it internally, i.e., as real valued numbers, back and forth between Numerology and VCV Rack?

I'm not encouraged by the relative immaturity of VCV Rack: it has modules for MIDI input and/or MIDI CC, to CV conversion, etc. But I don't think there's anything available that does 'pure' CV or even OSC.

On the other hand, Numerology can route MIDI and audio externally, through Jack say, but I don't know how that data is represented once it has left. And, of course, what it actually means to the receiving application is a whole other can of worms.

Does this post make any sense? I guess I'm wondering if there's a magic bullet interface or pipe that is kind of agnostic about what it's carrying but well enough behaved that it doesn't blow stuff up arbitrarily. Or something else...

Any ideas or links or pointers would be a great help. Thanks.

...edN

Aramis 01-15-2018 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eenixon (Post 16715)
I've done a bit of poking around and haven't found an obvious answer so here I am. I'm interested in whether there's a way to get MIDI or CV data as Numerology conceives it internally, i.e., as real valued numbers, back and forth between Numerology and VCV Rack?

I'm not encouraged by the relative immaturity of VCV Rack: it has modules for MIDI input and/or MIDI CC, to CV conversion, etc. But I don't think there's anything available that does 'pure' CV or even OSC.

On the other hand, Numerology can route MIDI and audio externally, through Jack say, but I don't know how that data is represented once it has left. And, of course, what it actually means to the receiving application is a whole other can of worms.

Does this post make any sense? I guess I'm wondering if there's a magic bullet interface or pipe that is kind of agnostic about what it's carrying but well enough behaved that it doesn't blow stuff up arbitrarily. Or something else...

Any ideas or links or pointers would be a great help. Thanks.

...edN

Hi! English not being my main language, I was hesitating asking that but now I thank you to have done it.

eenixon 01-15-2018 12:02 PM

MIDI and/or CV output to 'the World'
 
I suspect the answer is going to lie somewhere in or around Open Sound Control.

I gather someone is doing some OSC work for VCV rack already, a multichannel module.

And there is an "alpha" release of an OSC sequencer here:

https://github.com/j4s0n-c/trowaSoft-VCV/releases

Personally, I think it would be better to have a generic and robust I/O module rather than a bunch of generators or controllers each doing its own OSC thing and getting in each other's way. But... what do I know?

So, I guess it's in the oven but it ain't baked yet -- please don't use my English as an exemplar...

...edN

jim 01-15-2018 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eenixon (Post 16715)
I've done a bit of poking around and haven't found an obvious answer so here I am. I'm interested in whether there's a way to get MIDI or CV data as Numerology conceives it internally, i.e., as real valued numbers, back and forth between Numerology and VCV Rack?

Not that I'm aware of. Numerology's internal CV signals are 32-bit floating point numbers (i.e. same as for audio), which could be converted to OSC messages with the same resolution, and that would work fine for signals that don't change quickly (i.e. less that 500 times a second), but not necessarily for something that changes continuously over time -- like an LFO. For that you have to use something like the CV2Audio module to convert the CV signal to audio, then you'd have to get it into VCV Rack.

Cheers,
Jim

Aramis 01-16-2018 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jim (Post 16718)
Not that I'm aware of. Numerology's internal CV signals are 32-bit floating point numbers (i.e. same as for audio), which could be converted to OSC messages with the same resolution, and that would work fine for signals that don't change quickly (i.e. less that 500 times a second), but not necessarily for something that changes continuously over time -- like an LFO. For that you have to use something like the CV2Audio module to convert the CV signal to audio, then you'd have to get it into VCV Rack.

Cheers,
Jim

http://motu.com/products/software/volta/vi.html

Could this be a solution? I wonder ?

eenixon 01-17-2018 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jim (Post 16718)
Not that I'm aware of. Numerology's internal CV signals are 32-bit floating point numbers (i.e. same as for audio), which could be converted to OSC messages with the same resolution, and that would work fine for signals that don't change quickly (i.e. less that 500 times a second), but not necessarily for something that changes continuously over time -- like an LFO. For that you have to use something like the CV2Audio module to convert the CV signal to audio, then you'd have to get it into VCV Rack.

Cheers,
Jim

OK! Great. A technical question on this but first some background:

Yesterday I became aware of a two plugins from https://dialogaudio.com/

I downloaded the demos and was experimenting with using their modulation capabilities from Ableton Live to VCV Rack. One of the options for communicating the modulation data is "Audio CV." I was corresponding with one of the developers about my experience and received the following:

"Please do not use your FocusRite audio interface for CV signals! “Audio CV” signals, which are produced by our plugins, are only designed for external hardware with CV inputs via a DC-coupled audio interface. As far as I know is the Sapphire not DC-coupled. Please check this page:
https://dialogaudio.com/modulationprocessor/device_info.php"

So my questions:

* Can I use, for example, an unused Saphire Pro channel or Jack to move Numerology's CVAudio data stream into an other application, for example the present subject, VCV Rack? In other words, is the concern of DC-coupled circuit something I should worry about.

* Could I simply route CVAudio output from Numerology running in VST mode to another track in, say, Live or Reaper, and see it interpreted as modulation signal? Or does it have to be re-purposed somehow? If so, how?

So much of this is ambiguous (confused?) to me because it's MIDI, MIDI, MIDI all the way down. For example, the guy at Dialog Audio said they use 14-bit MIDI so the modulation is "nice and smooth." I didn't know there was such a thing. And I don't know what it means or why you'd bother if all you need is 128 discreet and integral values.

Dazed and Confused. ...edN

dpcoffin 01-19-2018 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eenixon (Post 16727)


Dazed and Confused. ...edN

Ditto! Seems we're both barking around trying to find the same right tree (http://www.five12.net/showthread.php...21#post16721):)

Jim's reply to me there seems equally apropos here, plus more detailed, so I'll paste it in, and will happily ditch my thread to follow this one, assuming whatever you find re VCV rack will be as useful for other virtual devices.
As eenixon mentions, CV signals in Numerology are floating-point numbers -- i.e. the same values used for audio. Also like audio, it is a 'stream' of values instead of discrete messages (like MIDI or OSC). This is a very powerful way to represent an arbitrarily moving signal, but can be very much overkill for many types of musically useful signals -- like note numbers.

Here's a short guide to how to pick the most efficient, but still accurate way to send information around:

Use MIDI For: Medium resolution and medium update rates. Everything from note values, triggers and gates, and many, many synthesis parameters (frequency cutoff, LFO speed, etc). As tempting as it might be to use CV for everything, you can often get by with just MIDI -- and it works with just about anything. One thing to watch out for though: It isn't difficult to saturate a MIDI interface with Numerology-generated notes and CC messages -- but IAC busses are software are generally OK w/ high-data-rate MIDI.

Use OSC For: High resolution and medium update rates. Slow moving LFOs, frequency values, etc.

Use N4 Pro's CV2Audio and a DC-capable audio interface for those cases where you really need both high resolution AND high update rates. On a modular system, this typically means audio-rate modulation of some sort -- say a fast LFO, or a weird quickly moving control source (wogglebug). With something like Reaktor, you can use and audio input and an envelope follower to convert an audio-rate control signal into something it can use internally.

Cheers,
Jim
I tracked down more on Volta, btw; seems both expensive ($200+) and old, as well as unlikely to be really universal.

I've always wondered whether the most straight-forward application of some more cash towards this goal mightn't simply be some cheap-as-possible DC-Coupled hardware interface that could easily pass what's routed out to it right back inside for virtual distribution. I'm also hoping that Bitwig Studio will have some useful tools as well, as my Reaktor inquiries have suggested that BW works easily with CV/Audio straight out of that.

Been getting cool results with Dialog Audio's new MIDI FX plugins inside Logic (MIDI only, so far), btw; highly recommended if you're using Logic.

eenixon 01-19-2018 07:43 PM

MIDI and/or CV output to "the World"
 
Thanks for this.

All I have to contribute is ephemeral: there was a post on the VCV Facebook group last night that I can't find -- FB is not meant for finding things unless your an advertiser. The gist of the post.was a report from a guy who had 'kludged' together a flow of AudioCV or perhaps more accurately audio rate signal that involved either Loopback or Soundflower routing, i.e., it never saw the light of DC day, through some sort of MAX coding. It was late but I think Digital Performer might have been mentioned. And that might be why the post has become so hard to find.

I'll keep digging around but, based on your copy/paste there's probably limited use for AudioCV. Unless, of course, you're exploring the HotBunny VCV modules which, in a oscillator context, use an LFO turned way up to generate the base frequency, which is then routed through the random goodness of that plugin set. Interesting stuff but maybe not relevant and probably no on topic for this thread. Thanks again.

dpcoffin 01-20-2018 03:32 AM

Ah, thanks for the FB VCV group tip; found lots of good stuff searching the group with "loopback"; very helpful!

eenixon 01-20-2018 08:21 AM

MIDI and/or CV output to "the World"
 
Two items:

* Here's the link to the FB post I mentioned yesterday about using Max and Loopback to connect VCV Rack to, as it turns out, Gig Performer -- VST hosting app:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/vcvr...0613218932164/

Unfortunately, the Youtube video it refers to has been taken down.

* Just a clarification regarding LFO and HotBunny: in the final example patch in the documentation for HotBunny, an LFO is used to clock one of the HB modules, not a particularly innovative thing probably but in the context and when the LFO is run at or near audio rate, it seems to create some interesting possibilities for timbre shading/shifting given both the frequency and the 4 waveform options available for clock input.

Kind of wandering far and wide here; maybe time to stop unless there are further developments.


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