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  #1  
Old 07-18-2010, 06:25 PM
rexlapin rexlapin is offline
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Default Korg KARMA

I was intrigued by a post on KVR inquiring if there were any VSTs which
could emulate the Korg KARMA. Would Numerology (particularly with the
N3 capabilities such as Evolve), be able to do so? I have never played with
one, but if any of you have had experience with it I would be interested
in hearing your impressions.
Cheers,
Scott
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  #2  
Old 07-19-2010, 05:52 PM
jim jim is offline
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I've never really delved into how the Karma works, so I can't really say one way or the other. But evolve is definitely a way to build some constantly-mutating, interactive parts very quickly. Then combine that with some parameter modulation and a launchpad....

Best,
Jim
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  #3  
Old 07-21-2010, 12:13 PM
deva deva is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rexlapin View Post
I was intrigued by a post on KVR inquiring if there were any VSTs which
could emulate the Korg KARMA. Would Numerology (particularly with the
N3 capabilities such as Evolve), be able to do so? I have never played with
one, but if any of you have had experience with it I would be interested
in hearing your impressions.
Cheers,
Scott
Numerology does not really work as an arpeggiator... and Karma is a super sophisticated arp...

Numerology is kinda to step sequencers, what Karma is to arps
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  #4  
Old 07-21-2010, 12:48 PM
rexlapin rexlapin is offline
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Thanks for your replies. Stephen Kay, the developer of KARMA has also been
contributing to the KVR thread for any of you who might be interested:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewto...er=asc&start=0
Cheers,
Scott
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  #5  
Old 07-22-2010, 10:55 AM
jim jim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rexlapin View Post
Thanks for your replies. Stephen Kay, the developer of KARMA has also been
contributing to the KVR thread for any of you who might be interested:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewto...er=asc&start=0
Cheers,
Scott
Thanks for the link, that was an interesting read....
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  #6  
Old 07-22-2010, 07:37 AM
Sjoerd Sjoerd is offline
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Originally Posted by deva View Post
Numerology does not really work as an arpeggiator...
I respectfully disagree quite strongly there. I have built some highly useful customized setups I am willing to bet hard cash on KARMA can not replicate. And I didn't need 16 years to build them, thanks to Numerology.

<rant>
Also, I haven't yet seen or used a KARMA, and am indeed getting interested in it on further reading, but to me that KVR thread sounds like that KARMA OL thing is gonna be one massive pack of bloatware (bundling with all kinds of plugins I really wouldn't invest in, already own, etc. - e.g. the Sylenth1 is a nice plugin but there is almost guaranteed to be no further development on it; 'we all' bought the Breverb LE for a few bucks at audiomidi.com, etc...), where the designer wants to make many of the (imho probably more often than not very bad) creative and technical choices for users, and, most importantly, it will definitely not work as well as Numerology. I would seriously not dare using it in front of a live audience if it uses Reaper for hosting (as planned). As a long time heavy-duty Reaper user I know exactly where all of its many systemic design flaws are, which will make it impossible to get the results Numerology can (for starters, while OL/SK apparently think you can, you will not be able to vary speed while playing without nasty MIDI/audio/clock artifacts; communication with VST/AU plugins will be MIDI-only, no OSC or (most important: ) direct control over any VST/AU plugin parameters -- Cockos did not even manage to get any communication going between hosted plugins and their homegrown and very tightly integrated Jesusonic other than plain audio and MIDI, and even that is severely lacking in MIDI-spec'ed features; you will be limited to a parameter modulation rate of only once every sample buffer (!), so everything will be much more 'stepped' than Numerology (which goes up to once per four samples depending on preference); also, forget about any useful parameter feedback system for remote controllers - users have been asking for that for years and still did not get anything remotely useful, pardon the pun). Also, after having installed some 500+ different testing versions, I think I have a pretty good idea of the sort of stuff the developers can and will do to get things fixed. Which is a lot, but not this. "Just go buy Live if that's what you want" is what they think while they try really hard not to laugh. While I do really love Reaper for many things, it's mostly non-realtime stuff where it excels, and live performance where it (quite inelegantly) fails. While I wish this project, appealing in theory as it is, will become a huge success, I'm afraid that it is pretty hopeless in practice. If he would have said "Bidule" I would have believed it in a split second. With Reaper though, I'll double my bet against it.
</rant>

Anyways (long shot...), since the guy is open to licensing, why not have him try Numerology and either give up or propose Jim a deal he can't refuse?

Last edited by Sjoerd; 07-22-2010 at 07:40 AM.
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  #7  
Old 07-22-2010, 12:36 PM
deva deva is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjoerd View Post
I respectfully disagree quite strongly there. I have built some highly useful customized setups I am willing to bet hard cash on KARMA can not replicate. And I didn't need 16 years to build them, thanks to Numerology.

<rant>
Also, I haven't yet seen or used a KARMA, and am indeed getting interested in it on further reading, but to me that KVR thread sounds like that KARMA OL thing is gonna be one massive pack of bloatware (bundling with all kinds of plugins I really wouldn't invest in, already own, etc. - e.g. the Sylenth1 is a nice plugin but there is almost guaranteed to be no further development on it; 'we all' bought the Breverb LE for a few bucks at audiomidi.com, etc...), where the designer wants to make many of the (imho probably more often than not very bad) creative and technical choices for users, and, most importantly, it will definitely not work as well as Numerology. I would seriously not dare using it in front of a live audience if it uses Reaper for hosting (as planned). As a long time heavy-duty Reaper user I know exactly where all of its many systemic design flaws are, which will make it impossible to get the results Numerology can (for starters, while OL/SK apparently think you can, you will not be able to vary speed while playing without nasty MIDI/audio/clock artifacts; communication with VST/AU plugins will be MIDI-only, no OSC or (most important: ) direct control over any VST/AU plugin parameters -- Cockos did not even manage to get any communication going between hosted plugins and their homegrown and very tightly integrated Jesusonic other than plain audio and MIDI, and even that is severely lacking in MIDI-spec'ed features; you will be limited to a parameter modulation rate of only once every sample buffer (!), so everything will be much more 'stepped' than Numerology (which goes up to once per four samples depending on preference); also, forget about any useful parameter feedback system for remote controllers - users have been asking for that for years and still did not get anything remotely useful, pardon the pun). Also, after having installed some 500+ different testing versions, I think I have a pretty good idea of the sort of stuff the developers can and will do to get things fixed. Which is a lot, but not this. "Just go buy Live if that's what you want" is what they think while they try really hard not to laugh. While I do really love Reaper for many things, it's mostly non-realtime stuff where it excels, and live performance where it (quite inelegantly) fails. While I wish this project, appealing in theory as it is, will become a huge success, I'm afraid that it is pretty hopeless in practice. If he would have said "Bidule" I would have believed it in a split second. With Reaper though, I'll double my bet against it.
</rant>

Anyways (long shot...), since the guy is open to licensing, why not have him try Numerology and either give up or propose Jim a deal he can't refuse?
I have no comment about the choice to use Reaper and all that.

On the other hand, you have not even tried Karma. Perhaps you should not be so dismissive about something you have not tried. It is impressive. It is a remarkable arpeggiator +. 2 people can play the same setup and get quite different results because it responds in complex and musically interesting ways to your playing. There is something fluidly interactive about it that I don't yet find with Numerology.
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  #8  
Old 07-22-2010, 01:42 PM
jim jim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deva View Post
On the other hand, you have not even tried Karma. Perhaps you should not be so dismissive about something you have not tried. It is impressive. It is a remarkable arpeggiator +. 2 people can play the same setup and get quite different results because it responds in complex and musically interesting ways to your playing. There is something fluidly interactive about it that I don't yet find with Numerology.
I see his post as mostly ranting about Reaper, and the choice to use it for hosting the Karma on OpenLabs' hardware. How well that works will ultimately depend on how it is setup for the OpenLabs systems, more than anything else.

I have only used Reaper briefly a while back, so I can't say anything one way or another -- and I never post my personal opinions on other music products anyway (other than the occasional boost for something I use myself that I feel deserves more attention). What I can say is that it is amazingly difficult and frustrating to write any sort of plugin host, so mad respect for anyone that has the nerve to do it.

Jim
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  #9  
Old 07-25-2010, 07:29 AM
Sjoerd Sjoerd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deva View Post
I have no comment about the choice to use Reaper and all that.

On the other hand, you have not even tried Karma. Perhaps you should not be so dismissive about something you have not tried. It is impressive. It is a remarkable arpeggiator +. 2 people can play the same setup and get quite different results because it responds in complex and musically interesting ways to your playing. There is something fluidly interactive about it that I don't yet find with Numerology.
True, I have not tried it yet, but not because I did not want to. I am not dismissive about Karma at all, I'd really love to see it and play with it. I should have also thanked you for bringing it up, as I find it very interesting indeed. So here, thanks.

I am however very pessimistic about the idea to implement such a thing (if I understand what it would do correctly) using Reaper as back end (not dismissive: I am even adding an incentive to try doing so by offering to take a bet ). Not ranting about Reaper per se either -- I praise Reaper and respect its developers a lot -- but for this particular planned combination/integration I foresee nothing but insurmountable problems. I would even more love to see it happen as it would undoubtedly benefit me as a Reaper user. I will love this project if only for that.

Also, the idea of tying/bundling the sale with a plethora of (probably imho more often than not inferior) plugins in itself doesn't bother me much as long as the price is right; but any deeper technical integration indicates that the concept of modularity (which plugins by definition are) is a bit wasted on the designer, although he seems sensitive to people disliking bundling. I'll be glad to try any arpeggiator, but I like to be free to pick my own sounds please. Otherwise, thanks but no thanks.

But more importantly, let's focus on constructive discussion, explaining how to use the arpeggiator abilities in Numerology and exploring how they can be further improved -- I take that as the main point of your original post, and will gladly agree they can be much improved still. Your 'checklist' above makes an excellent starting point for that.

On a more general note, I would advise (new) users not to take module names too literally at face value. For example, don't hesitate to use a MatrixSequencer or ChordSequencer for sequencing drums, even though there's a DrumSequencer staring you in the face. I can definitely see how a new Numerology user would open the only module called "arpeggiator" and then not really look beyond the features it shows. With Numerology however the fun really starts when you hook up modules to other modules. For example, if you would want the octave to alternate, it is easy enough to do so using *other* modules (e.g. use a LFO module with a square waveform to modulate the octave).

So what Jim said about "reorganization of the UI to better reflect what people generally expect" is very much true, but only part of the answer; the other part is that users relax their expectations once they get more comfortable with Numerology and realize that (almost) anything is possible within Numerology, but you 'have to' (I prefer 'are allowed to' :P) make it yourself. And because I find building stuff relatively easy in Numerology (compared to possible alternatives), in my experience making your own ideal setup becomes part of the fun instead of part of the frustration.

On a more abstract level, imho arpeggiators are a particular type of step sequencer as well, or maybe more appropriately, consist of the same types of building blocks. I guess the defining feature of the 'traditional' arpeggiator is the sorting of input notes in real-time, and that is indeed not necessarily present in every traditional step sequencer. However, it comes standard for every one in Numerology. Accordingly, a lot of arpeggiator-type can be build in Numerology already. There are indeed still some little quirks related to sorting of polyphonic realtime input (on a single MIDI channel and port) that do get in the way sometimes, but I have great confidence that those will get sorted out sooner rather than later.
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  #10  
Old 07-25-2010, 10:04 AM
rexlapin rexlapin is offline
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Sjeord,
For being able to do realtime polyphonic sorting on a single MIDI
channel, I have been using Numerology in conjunction with Ernest
Mayer's Godel ensemble running in Reaktor standalone. Quite a
powerful combination!
http://heavensonearth.com/Godel/
Cheers,
Scott
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