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  #1  
Old 07-18-2010, 06:25 PM
rexlapin rexlapin is offline
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Default Korg KARMA

I was intrigued by a post on KVR inquiring if there were any VSTs which
could emulate the Korg KARMA. Would Numerology (particularly with the
N3 capabilities such as Evolve), be able to do so? I have never played with
one, but if any of you have had experience with it I would be interested
in hearing your impressions.
Cheers,
Scott
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  #2  
Old 07-19-2010, 05:52 PM
jim jim is offline
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I've never really delved into how the Karma works, so I can't really say one way or the other. But evolve is definitely a way to build some constantly-mutating, interactive parts very quickly. Then combine that with some parameter modulation and a launchpad....

Best,
Jim
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  #3  
Old 07-21-2010, 12:13 PM
deva deva is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rexlapin View Post
I was intrigued by a post on KVR inquiring if there were any VSTs which
could emulate the Korg KARMA. Would Numerology (particularly with the
N3 capabilities such as Evolve), be able to do so? I have never played with
one, but if any of you have had experience with it I would be interested
in hearing your impressions.
Cheers,
Scott
Numerology does not really work as an arpeggiator... and Karma is a super sophisticated arp...

Numerology is kinda to step sequencers, what Karma is to arps
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  #4  
Old 07-21-2010, 12:48 PM
rexlapin rexlapin is offline
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Thanks for your replies. Stephen Kay, the developer of KARMA has also been
contributing to the KVR thread for any of you who might be interested:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewto...er=asc&start=0
Cheers,
Scott
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  #5  
Old 07-22-2010, 07:37 AM
Sjoerd Sjoerd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deva View Post
Numerology does not really work as an arpeggiator...
I respectfully disagree quite strongly there. I have built some highly useful customized setups I am willing to bet hard cash on KARMA can not replicate. And I didn't need 16 years to build them, thanks to Numerology.

<rant>
Also, I haven't yet seen or used a KARMA, and am indeed getting interested in it on further reading, but to me that KVR thread sounds like that KARMA OL thing is gonna be one massive pack of bloatware (bundling with all kinds of plugins I really wouldn't invest in, already own, etc. - e.g. the Sylenth1 is a nice plugin but there is almost guaranteed to be no further development on it; 'we all' bought the Breverb LE for a few bucks at audiomidi.com, etc...), where the designer wants to make many of the (imho probably more often than not very bad) creative and technical choices for users, and, most importantly, it will definitely not work as well as Numerology. I would seriously not dare using it in front of a live audience if it uses Reaper for hosting (as planned). As a long time heavy-duty Reaper user I know exactly where all of its many systemic design flaws are, which will make it impossible to get the results Numerology can (for starters, while OL/SK apparently think you can, you will not be able to vary speed while playing without nasty MIDI/audio/clock artifacts; communication with VST/AU plugins will be MIDI-only, no OSC or (most important: ) direct control over any VST/AU plugin parameters -- Cockos did not even manage to get any communication going between hosted plugins and their homegrown and very tightly integrated Jesusonic other than plain audio and MIDI, and even that is severely lacking in MIDI-spec'ed features; you will be limited to a parameter modulation rate of only once every sample buffer (!), so everything will be much more 'stepped' than Numerology (which goes up to once per four samples depending on preference); also, forget about any useful parameter feedback system for remote controllers - users have been asking for that for years and still did not get anything remotely useful, pardon the pun). Also, after having installed some 500+ different testing versions, I think I have a pretty good idea of the sort of stuff the developers can and will do to get things fixed. Which is a lot, but not this. "Just go buy Live if that's what you want" is what they think while they try really hard not to laugh. While I do really love Reaper for many things, it's mostly non-realtime stuff where it excels, and live performance where it (quite inelegantly) fails. While I wish this project, appealing in theory as it is, will become a huge success, I'm afraid that it is pretty hopeless in practice. If he would have said "Bidule" I would have believed it in a split second. With Reaper though, I'll double my bet against it.
</rant>

Anyways (long shot...), since the guy is open to licensing, why not have him try Numerology and either give up or propose Jim a deal he can't refuse?

Last edited by Sjoerd; 07-22-2010 at 07:40 AM.
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  #6  
Old 07-22-2010, 10:55 AM
jim jim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rexlapin View Post
Thanks for your replies. Stephen Kay, the developer of KARMA has also been
contributing to the KVR thread for any of you who might be interested:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewto...er=asc&start=0
Cheers,
Scott
Thanks for the link, that was an interesting read....
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  #7  
Old 07-22-2010, 11:03 AM
jim jim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deva View Post
Numerology does not really work as an arpeggiator... and Karma is a super sophisticated arp...
While I will totally cop to Numerology not working as well as it could for arpeggiating things, it does include a powerful, programmable arpeggiator. The issue is that is somewhat hidden, and somewhat tricky to use. What I'm taking away from all this (and some other posts I've seen recently) is that I should be working on it more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deva View Post
Numerology is kinda to step sequencers, what Karma is to arps
That I pretty much agree with. I'm not really interested in having Numerology try to do what Karma does, but what I am curious to hear more about are more specifics about what people find most appealing about the Karma -- is it specifically the arpeggiator-style interactivity, or the ability to quickly generate track ideas, etc. And, of course, what they don't like -- other than that the current implementations are tied to Korg hardware.

Cheers,
Jim
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  #8  
Old 07-22-2010, 12:36 PM
deva deva is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjoerd View Post
I respectfully disagree quite strongly there. I have built some highly useful customized setups I am willing to bet hard cash on KARMA can not replicate. And I didn't need 16 years to build them, thanks to Numerology.

<rant>
Also, I haven't yet seen or used a KARMA, and am indeed getting interested in it on further reading, but to me that KVR thread sounds like that KARMA OL thing is gonna be one massive pack of bloatware (bundling with all kinds of plugins I really wouldn't invest in, already own, etc. - e.g. the Sylenth1 is a nice plugin but there is almost guaranteed to be no further development on it; 'we all' bought the Breverb LE for a few bucks at audiomidi.com, etc...), where the designer wants to make many of the (imho probably more often than not very bad) creative and technical choices for users, and, most importantly, it will definitely not work as well as Numerology. I would seriously not dare using it in front of a live audience if it uses Reaper for hosting (as planned). As a long time heavy-duty Reaper user I know exactly where all of its many systemic design flaws are, which will make it impossible to get the results Numerology can (for starters, while OL/SK apparently think you can, you will not be able to vary speed while playing without nasty MIDI/audio/clock artifacts; communication with VST/AU plugins will be MIDI-only, no OSC or (most important: ) direct control over any VST/AU plugin parameters -- Cockos did not even manage to get any communication going between hosted plugins and their homegrown and very tightly integrated Jesusonic other than plain audio and MIDI, and even that is severely lacking in MIDI-spec'ed features; you will be limited to a parameter modulation rate of only once every sample buffer (!), so everything will be much more 'stepped' than Numerology (which goes up to once per four samples depending on preference); also, forget about any useful parameter feedback system for remote controllers - users have been asking for that for years and still did not get anything remotely useful, pardon the pun). Also, after having installed some 500+ different testing versions, I think I have a pretty good idea of the sort of stuff the developers can and will do to get things fixed. Which is a lot, but not this. "Just go buy Live if that's what you want" is what they think while they try really hard not to laugh. While I do really love Reaper for many things, it's mostly non-realtime stuff where it excels, and live performance where it (quite inelegantly) fails. While I wish this project, appealing in theory as it is, will become a huge success, I'm afraid that it is pretty hopeless in practice. If he would have said "Bidule" I would have believed it in a split second. With Reaper though, I'll double my bet against it.
</rant>

Anyways (long shot...), since the guy is open to licensing, why not have him try Numerology and either give up or propose Jim a deal he can't refuse?
I have no comment about the choice to use Reaper and all that.

On the other hand, you have not even tried Karma. Perhaps you should not be so dismissive about something you have not tried. It is impressive. It is a remarkable arpeggiator +. 2 people can play the same setup and get quite different results because it responds in complex and musically interesting ways to your playing. There is something fluidly interactive about it that I don't yet find with Numerology.
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  #9  
Old 07-22-2010, 01:42 PM
jim jim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deva View Post
On the other hand, you have not even tried Karma. Perhaps you should not be so dismissive about something you have not tried. It is impressive. It is a remarkable arpeggiator +. 2 people can play the same setup and get quite different results because it responds in complex and musically interesting ways to your playing. There is something fluidly interactive about it that I don't yet find with Numerology.
I see his post as mostly ranting about Reaper, and the choice to use it for hosting the Karma on OpenLabs' hardware. How well that works will ultimately depend on how it is setup for the OpenLabs systems, more than anything else.

I have only used Reaper briefly a while back, so I can't say anything one way or another -- and I never post my personal opinions on other music products anyway (other than the occasional boost for something I use myself that I feel deserves more attention). What I can say is that it is amazingly difficult and frustrating to write any sort of plugin host, so mad respect for anyone that has the nerve to do it.

Jim
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  #10  
Old 07-22-2010, 02:00 PM
deva deva is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim View Post
While I will totally cop to Numerology not working as well as it could for arpeggiating things, it does include a powerful, programmable arpeggiator. The issue is that is somewhat hidden, and somewhat tricky to use. What I'm taking away from all this (and some other posts I've seen recently) is that I should be working on it more.



That I pretty much agree with. I'm not really interested in having Numerology try to do what Karma does, but what I am curious to hear more about are more specifics about what people find most appealing about the Karma -- is it specifically the arpeggiator-style interactivity, or the ability to quickly generate track ideas, etc. And, of course, what they don't like -- other than that the current implementations are tied to Korg hardware.

Cheers,
Jim
I like the arpeggiator style interactivity in Karma... and that it can be programmed to respond in complex and musically interesting ways to your live playing.

The Numerology Arp module:

First thing is... I have not gotten it working correctly... it seems quite buggy.. it drops out notes. Sometimes I will hold 4 notes and it plays 3... Sometimes i will hit a chord and it does nothing, or plays a note then stops. If I hold 7 notes, it sometimes runs through them all and sometimes plays the first 1 or 2 and starts over.

Then bugginess aside:
I do not understand at all what is the thinking behind it
if I hold 1 note, it does not play through the sequence but only plays the first note... what is the point of the sequence?

it only has basic up/down choices and no as played option

sustain pedal does not work to hold notes

there is no hold function

every note is muted and if you make a chord in the sequence, you have to manually un mute that note to hear the chord... release the keys and hit them again and you have to manually unmute again.

I'm sorry, but the arp module seems like an afterthought.

Numerology is quite impressive to make a whole complex composition that plays when I hit the spacebar, but as far as interacting with my own live playing, it is less capable than the basic arps in Alchemy or Zebra... if it is possible to do more, it is certainly obscure how to go about that... it is not built into the arp module.
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