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  #11  
Old 02-02-2011, 06:06 PM
jim jim is offline
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Originally Posted by Logos Lover View Post
Is this the correct video to set it up?
IAC
Yes, that is a good reference...

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Originally Posted by Logos Lover View Post
I only use hardware synths so i'm not sure what changes i'd need to make to the example shown in the video?
You only need to pay attention to the IAC bus setup, the sync setup in Numerology, and the sync setup in Logic. You can skip anything involving MIDI channels, the Logic Environment, etc. Most of the beginning of the video is sync setup, with the Logic sync setup a bit before half-way through.

You might also want to check the Appendix in the manual. There is a "how-to" on syncing Numerology to Logic via MTC -- MIDI Clock is the same, just with a different sync-type setting, and you can ignore the SMPTE format settings.

Cheers,
Jim
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  #12  
Old 03-13-2011, 05:38 AM
Logos Lover Logos Lover is offline
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Originally Posted by jim View Post
You only need to pay attention to the IAC bus setup, the sync setup in Numerology, and the sync setup in Logic. You can skip anything involving MIDI channels, the Logic Environment, etc. Most of the beginning of the video is sync setup, with the Logic sync setup a bit before half-way through.
Cheers,
Jim
So i've just set this up and it was pretty straight forward. I created an IAC Bus in the Audi midi set-up. Set Numerology's sync-in to midi-clock via the IAC bus, and in Logic I'm transmitting midi-clock via the IAC bus. Starting Logic, starts Numerology as it should, following tempo changes etc

Numerology is controlling a hardware synth, and in Logic i record this synth to an audio track. But there is latency off the grid averaging 240 samples/ 5 ms, (which i can see in Logic's sample editor)
So how tdo I compensate for this 240 samples / 5ms latency, to get recorded audio as bang on to the grid as possible?

Last edited by Logos Lover; 03-13-2011 at 05:44 AM.
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  #13  
Old 03-14-2011, 12:31 PM
jim jim is offline
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Originally Posted by Logos Lover View Post
Numerology is controlling a hardware synth, and in Logic i record this synth to an audio track. But there is latency off the grid averaging 240 samples/ 5 ms, (which i can see in Logic's sample editor)
So how tdo I compensate for this 240 samples / 5ms latency, to get recorded audio as bang on to the grid as possible?
The most accurate, foolproof method is to do it after the fact, by manually shifting the audio. Logic also has track-based latency controls, but I do not know them very well.

I am adding a "clock offset" feature to Numerology 3.1 (SE & Pro), it allows you to run a track ahead or behind a bit (just like the latency adjustment in the Numerology AU). The setting can be made in milliseconds or # of audio buffers. If you have N3 Pro, you can use the ClockOffset module, but you have to determine the amount of 'run ahead' in fractions of a beat.

Cheers,
Jim
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  #14  
Old 03-14-2011, 05:55 PM
Logos Lover Logos Lover is offline
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Originally Posted by jim View Post
The most accurate, foolproof method is to do it after the fact, by manually shifting the audio. Logic also has track-based latency controls, but I do not know them very well.

I am adding a "clock offset" feature to Numerology 3.1 (SE & Pro), it allows you to run a track ahead or behind a bit (just like the latency adjustment in the Numerology AU). The setting can be made in milliseconds or # of audio buffers.
Cheers,
Jim
I like to run all my synths live, so the clock offset is something i'm really looking forward to with the 3.1 release.
BTW I could never get the AU to be accurate when controlling a hardware synth. Either too far ahead, so i'd adjust the "timing fine adjust", then it'd be too far behind the grid, adjust a little again, then back the other way. I spent ages trying to get it right, but never could. Sorry to say i just gave up on it altogether.
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  #15  
Old 03-15-2011, 04:53 AM
baltimoroder baltimoroder is offline
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Originally Posted by Logos Lover View Post
BTW I could never get the AU to be accurate when controlling a hardware synth.
Not for nothing but are you sure it's the AU timing that's at fault? I've found the AU to be incredibly accurate whereas most latency/jitter is introduced by USB midi interfaces. I've also discovered that the lowest buffer settings provide the most accurate MIDI handling. YMMV.
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  #16  
Old 03-15-2011, 05:50 AM
Logos Lover Logos Lover is offline
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Originally Posted by baltimoroder View Post
Not for nothing but are you sure it's the AU timing that's at fault? I've found the AU to be incredibly accurate whereas most latency/jitter is introduced by USB midi interfaces. I've also discovered that the lowest buffer settings provide the most accurate MIDI handling. YMMV.
Thanks for the help. Yes i have been using the lowest buffer setting in Logic 9 (32 samples) and as i only use hardware, get by fine like this.
I've also tested midi jitter and latency within Logic 9 + Unitor8 Mk2 interface. As an example testing my Ensoniq SQ80, i've found it has a reaction time of around 3.1ms to incoming midi data. This is it's midi latency value. So i adjust Logic's track delay parameter by this amount, and I can more or less get the synth to record bang on the grid, with very minimal jitter... worst case is 1.7ms of jitter. By the way I found this to be TIGHTER than the mighty Atari. (where i ran the same tests)
Other hardware synths have different latency times to incoming midi data, and this value increases, due to midi being a serial protocol, as polyphony is added. So each synth will need a different "offset" value in its track settings to compensate.
To conclude, and from my own tests I found Logic 9 + Unitor8 Mk2 (which supports time stamping under OSX) to be very good timing wise.
But when I use Numerology AU to control my already tested tight SQ80, and i record audio, checking it in the sample editor, its all over the place. Late by 500 samples (12ms) so i adjust the AU timing offset, by this amount. Try again, and then it's too early. Adjust and try again... still no luck. Just can not get it to be accurate at all.
That's why i'm looking at syncing Logic to Numerology via IAC bus midi clock, or ReWire etc... whichever of these will provide the tightest timing.
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  #17  
Old 03-15-2011, 09:10 AM
jim jim is offline
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Originally Posted by Logos Lover View Post
But when I use Numerology AU to control my already tested tight SQ80, and i record audio, checking it in the sample editor, its all over the place. Late by 500 samples (12ms) so i adjust the AU timing offset, by this amount. Try again, and then it's too early. Adjust and try again... still no luck. Just can not get it to be accurate at all.
If you want to pursue it further, just drop me an email (jim (at) five12 <dot> com), perhaps with some juggling of settings we can get it working better for you.

BTW: If you have not complained to Apple about the "AU MIDI Output not supported in Logic/Mainstage" issue, I highly recommend you do that now:
http://www.five12.net/showthread.php?t=1234
Once they fix that, all these latency and timing issues will go away....

"the squeaky wheel gets the oil"

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Originally Posted by Logos Lover View Post
That's why i'm looking at syncing Logic to Numerology via IAC bus midi clock, or ReWire etc... whichever of these will provide the tightest timing.
As of 3.0.2, sync via MIDI provides the most accurate timing -- i.e. the least jitter between notes, but in both cases, you will see some latency (a delay in MIDI relative to the original source) due to MIDI transmission through the system. In N3 Pro, you can use the ClockOffset module to tweak latency, but as that module is tempo-based, it isn't very convenient to use on a regular basis.

In 3.1 the ReWire driver will have an option to use a more accurate scheduling algorithm (long story...), and there will be a new latency compensation option for the app both in standalone and ReWire modes.

Cheers,
Jim
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  #18  
Old 03-15-2011, 10:15 AM
Logos Lover Logos Lover is offline
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Originally Posted by jim View Post
As of 3.0.2, sync via MIDI provides the most accurate timing -- i.e. the least jitter between notes, but in both cases, you will see some latency (a delay in MIDI relative to the original source) due to MIDI transmission through the system. In N3 Pro, you can use the ClockOffset module to tweak latency, but as that module is tempo-based, it isn't very convenient to use on a regular basis.

In 3.1 the ReWire driver will have an option to use a more accurate scheduling algorithm (long story...), and there will be a new latency compensation option for the app both in standalone and ReWire modes.

Cheers,
Jim
So for now use midi clock sync (which i've set up and have running) but as of 3.1, the ReWire driver will provide tighter sync, jitter, latency etc than midi-clock sync. Is that correct?

Have already sent the message to Apple.... hope they're listening !!
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  #19  
Old 03-16-2011, 10:01 AM
jim jim is offline
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Originally Posted by Logos Lover View Post
So for now use midi clock sync (which i've set up and have running) but as of 3.1, the ReWire driver will provide tighter sync, jitter, latency etc than midi-clock sync. Is that correct?
In version 3.1, ReWire mode will have more easier sync setup, tighter sync, equivalent MIDI accuracy, about the same latency, but with better options for controlling latency (both in ReWire mode and standalone).

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Have already sent the message to Apple.... hope they're listening !!
Thanks much! I strongly believe that they do, it just takes them a while to respond...

Cheers,
Jim
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  #20  
Old 03-17-2011, 01:22 PM
doctorvague doctorvague is offline
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This is all good news Jim as I use Numerology in real time a lot, as you know. Thanks for your continued improvements.
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