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  #11  
Old 12-18-2011, 12:47 PM
jonmoore jonmoore is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nil View Post
(already bought my DIVA license )
Yep, buying it myself too. Such a wonderful sound you can get out of that baby (even if it does eat most CPU's for breakfast).



JM
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  #12  
Old 12-18-2011, 04:48 PM
TwoToneshuzz TwoToneshuzz is offline
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Default Interesting stuff

I'm not much into using more than Numerology and Maschine, neither of which are great DAW's .

But I'm more and more getting what I need out of Numerology by squeezing the technology..

My sequencer Trigger and Super Trigger stack plus my main mute stack gives me pretty comprehensive control over where and when my sequencers start and stop...

That's the raw arrangement part that I've figured out after a couple of years of using Numerology..

The CPU issue has had me scraching my head, but I'm getting into some unique ways to deal with that as well.. Once I think it's worth sharing I'll post it under CPU effiency tricks withing Numerology under Tips and Tricks.

The tricks are useful for those with limited CPU for use with effects or Soft synths..


I also have a couple of hardware synths that I use to get more milieage out of my setup even with the CPU limitations..

I'd recommend anyone who has any CPU issues to get a old synth module or two anything reasonable from the last twenty years, when used as a supporting role can work fine.. This frees CPU and gives an insight into just how much mileage you can't get out of vintage gear.. I love my Wavestation AD, and the not so vintage Waldorf Blofeld keyboard.. They just bring another flavour into mix and look ma no CPU load, for 8 or ten extra voices..

I think though the main issue is to get something that works well musically instead of fretting about how luscious one voice may sound.. Music and fresh inspiring ideas first before smart technology will make you happier than the other way around anyday of the week.

Wade

Last edited by TwoToneshuzz; 12-18-2011 at 04:52 PM.
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  #13  
Old 12-18-2011, 05:29 PM
Tommy Zai Tommy Zai is offline
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So, for multiple instances of both Instruments and FX . . . is it better (cpu wise) to:

Do it all in N3 and then dump to tracks on DAW or run as a plugin or other?
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  #14  
Old 12-18-2011, 06:24 PM
jonmoore jonmoore is offline
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I can't speak for everybody else but the gist of what I was saying was that there is no best way, it's down to what suits your workflow best (based upon your operating system, the DAW you use, the processor overhead of your plugs etc) and to paraphrase Wade, what inspire you to produce your best music.

Jim understands this, that's why he provides the three differing working methodologies (4 if you count the AU workflow is being separate to the VST).

My method works best for me, Wade likes to limit himself to using Numerology and Maschine alone (sometimes restrictions eek out more creativity). Have a play with each working method and see what works best for you. As long as your machine is multi-core the differences in CPU performance shouldn't be your deciding factor.

I know you asked a specific question, but the answer is not a simple one. If you want a simple answer then obviously use Numerology to do everything that will of course be the most efficient way of working with the program, it may even turn out to be the best way for your specific needs but the difference in CPU performance between the different options is relatively negligible on a modern 4 core processor and in reality depending on your DAW of choice, your may find that it shares out the load more efficiently across the cores than Numerology in standalone mode.

I hope find this a more lucid answer.

JM
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  #15  
Old 12-18-2011, 07:14 PM
TwoToneshuzz TwoToneshuzz is offline
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Default More thoughts..

I love this type of dicussion and the answers in this thread are some of the best offerings on this issue.

I've tried using Numerology in Rewire with Reaper. And just briefly with Logic.

I have used Maschine hosted in Numerology. This works suprisingly well. My present problem though is my computers CPU isn't powerful enough to handle both Maschine and several softsynths. But that's where my hardware synths come to the rescue..

I'm not in any big rush to make a finished shiny production. I am in Development and experiemental modus, so as such I'm a speciel case..

But to bring production to completion I would make finished sequenced material with effects in Numerology and record that on a per stack basis. import that into Logic add sound effects realtime improvisation with som editing after the fact, though I hate editing improvisations.

Then do some section piecng together and do final sweeting.

This is a projection of how I would work if I went out of Numerology, right now I'm perfectly satisfied to continue developing ideas, learning about my sound generators, and effects. Developing a new way of working for me at my age is more important than continuing with the old multitrack in a box modus. That is so Done! Everything in the Sequencer ala Logic is so perfectly arranged and over produced lacks freshness and life. It's all so Perfect Powerful Pretty Popular but lacking fun, soul, immeadiacy and true vision..

Music by technological librarians..Cultural dumarians

Wade

Last edited by TwoToneshuzz; 12-18-2011 at 07:17 PM.
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  #16  
Old 12-18-2011, 07:20 PM
Tommy Zai Tommy Zai is offline
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Wade, do you envision yourself fully processing the stacks in N3 and then recording them into Logic or moving the midi over to Logic and opening the plugins there with processing? In truth, I wish I didn't need a DAW at all. I'd love to do all the midi stuff in N3, record onto a multitrack that has sync, and then mix-down and master with Bias Peak. it's the middle step, i.e. DAW that has me messed up.
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  #17  
Old 12-19-2011, 12:06 AM
jim jim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Zai View Post
Where would be the most efficient place to add the FX? I mean in N3 or DAW?
As most DAWs do have multi-threaded rendering, the default answer is yes, put FX in the DAW, but there are always other considerations. If you have a dual-core machine (but not an i5 or i7), then the computer can only efficiently run two threads at once, and as the UI thread for any music app tends to be pretty busy, there is a much shorter limit to the benefits of a multi-threaded render there. On a 4+ core system, it is a different story.

Also, most FX are pretty low CPU. Reverb (esp. convolution reverb), pitch shifting and some types of EQ (that fancy linear-phase stuff...) can be expensive, but delays, chorus, ring mod, all very low CPU. What I see most often taking lots of CPU are analog emulation synths -- some of which are mentioned in this rather excellent discussion. So my recommendation is that if you are expecting CPU load to be an issue, then look at the most expensive Synths you are running, and move those to another host.

Cheers,
Jim
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  #18  
Old 12-19-2011, 02:34 AM
TwoToneshuzz TwoToneshuzz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Zai View Post
Wade, do you envision yourself fully processing the stacks in N3 and then recording them into Logic or moving the midi over to Logic and opening the plugins there with processing? In truth, I wish I didn't need a DAW at all. I'd love to do all the midi stuff in N3, record onto a multitrack that has sync, and then mix-down and master with Bias Peak. it's the middle step, i.e. DAW that has me messed up.
I want to record the finished audio and midi on a per stack basis withing Numerology with the effects that are important to each sound source, for most flexbility perhaps one effected track and one un-effected track persound. Then take say six or eight Audio tracks plus their midi tracks from Numerology and then edit it together in Logic. Here I could also use the midi output from Numerologies sequencers To flesh out the arrangement using the usual Daw midi editing tools..

An added twist is to use Maschine as a plug in within Numerology to edit the midi. I can record the midi from other stacks..


Numerology stand alone

Logic or Bias Peak stand alone.

Another idea I have and want to implemet is to have 3 or 4 computers runnning Numerology at once to beat the CPU limitaitions.


Wade

Last edited by TwoToneshuzz; 12-19-2011 at 02:38 AM.
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  #19  
Old 12-19-2011, 04:18 AM
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Per Boysen Per Boysen is offline
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As already stated, there are no absolute answers to these questions, so maybe the best way is that we just keep on posting how we decide to work and why. Then anyone can compare and pick out methods that applies to his/her situation.

My favorite production method with Numerology is to use it as standalone and host instruments. I don't host effects, at this first stage, unless effects are used for musical hooks. The good thing with hosting instruments in Numerology is that you can sequence and modulate parameters inside the instruments by nifty CV control routing. You miss out on all that if generating a MIDI output to drive synths externally or in a DAW.

When deciding on how to organize stacks as stems to be rendered as audio files I base my decisions on what I want to do to these audio outputs in the mix. Some instruments need to be bus compressed together while others may need to be ducked by another instrument etc etc, all for achieving a living groove in the mix. Usually I render audio files according to the same decision pattern that a studio engineer would place mic's for recording a band. Now you see why I chose to mix in a DAW rather than summing Num's stems in a sample editor (like Peak).

The DAW I use for mixing is Logic. I have tried to mix in Ableton Live as well but for some reason my mixes tend to sound better when tweaked in Logic (but I'm a dedicated Live user for live work). Logic is also faster to use if painting in lots of automation.

Sometimes I have been composing in Logic while also mixing the piece - a very fast production method - and then I may fire up Numerology AU in order to generate a MIDI track by Numerology's trademark technique "discrete seqcuencing", something I know no DAW being able to pull off. When recording the MIDI output of the Numerology AU I have noticed that there is an absolute timing error. No panic though, because it is absolute and not varying you can fix it easily by opening a track's recorded MIDI in the List Editor, select all MIDI events, look for one that should be right on a downbeat and drag, or adjust the event position value, until this note falls at the correct time.
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  #20  
Old 12-19-2011, 10:59 AM
Tommy Zai Tommy Zai is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Per Boysen View Post
As already stated, there are no absolute answers to these questions, so maybe the best way is that we just keep on posting how we decide to work and why. Then anyone can compare and pick out methods that applies to his/her situation. . . .
It's helping me a lot! Once I get a flow going that works for me I promise to make you guys proud. I'm actually a talented song-writer and producer. Sadly, I'm a perfectionist, who often gets caught up in the little details and gets lost. I need to simplify so I can create. Continued thanks!

I'm seeing the added benefits of using N3 in standalone and then transferring to the Multitrack/DAW. I'm just not sure what I should transfer at this point. I know things change from project to project, but I need to figure out a basic way to work and go from there. Now my questions are:

After creating almost all the sequences in N3 . . .
Should I record audio from N3 to DAW? With or without FX?
Should I record audio and midi from N3 to DAW? With or without FX?
Should I record midi only from N3 to DAW and run the Instruments and FX in the DAW?
. . . and so on.

Jim has given me/us so many options. Very flexible, but I need to zero-in on a basic way to work and then adjust according to factors that come up along the way. I do have the beta of U-he Diva and as mentioned . . . the CPU hit is heavy, so that's a factor. The CPU heavy soft synths may have to be printed on the DAW.

I really appreciate hearing how you guys work. In fact, I think it would be kind of cool to have a thread whereby users indicate their common workflow. Is there such a thread?

If not, let's create one. That would be really helpful to new users and experience alike.
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