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  #1  
Old 07-24-2010, 07:19 PM
RHR RHR is offline
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Default The groove

I only have the demo. I have had it for about a year I think and occasionally sit and play around with it.

Anyway, I think the clock and groove sections in the modules could do with with a little reworking. I play about with those areas over and over and I just cant get a great feel. I understand with Numerology there is a large element of experimentalist making music and thats cool, but for some of us we kind of have a game plan if you know what I mean and 'groove' is the almighty important one for me. I know Numerology is a very powerful tool and I dont have the experience with it but everything I have heard on youtube or wherever else it has that same robotic feel and I absolutely know it can be better because theres a lot of power there with those modules.

I think what you have done here is very excellent, but its just a little to out there in certain areas to get musical results fast.I mean if you know what your going to do.

Im not asking for logic, MPC, presets. I personally never use groove presets.

But Put it this way Jim. In pro Tools I can take an audio bass line or anything else for that matter and nudge the notes around with sample accurate precision and get the feel I want pretty fast. This is just as sophisticated as what you have but at least there I Know that by nudging a particular note back or forward in samples Im going to get a certain feel. With numerology its random which I think is the intention?

As Ive played around with your creation I have sometimes across some very cool accidents but....hmmm,its hard to explain I just cant get it to gel. If couls inject my imprint, my feel on to the sequencer I just know that I could get some great material from it.

i really dont know if Im making any sense here and perhaps the software just isnt for me?

However in saying that Im an big fan of Sugar bytes Consequence and Eloquence and can get some really groovy musical stuff happening with that without the big effort.

But perhaps people like me are not your market?

In saying that though I was programming TB303's in the 80's and using modular hardware sequencers as well way back then and I didnt have the difficulty in getting a vibe. So Im not exactly a newbie to this style of sequencing at all.

this is not a crticisim..I think?
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Old 07-24-2010, 07:58 PM
RHR RHR is offline
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Jim, In case you read this...

I read my post back and I dont think I came across properly.

All I mean is when i mess around with the groove sections with a bassline for example I just know that I could get one of those How the hell did he do that I nearly get there.... just not quite and it could be the way the user has to operate?

But its a marvellous piece of software you have.
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  #3  
Old 07-25-2010, 05:06 AM
Sjoerd Sjoerd is offline
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Originally Posted by RHR View Post
With numerology its random which I think is the intention?
It is possible, but definitely not the intention.

I am able to get swinging grooves quite fine; but terms such as these are easy to interpret differently... maybe post a specific example (audio clip? picture?) of the kind of thing you want but are unable to achieve (yet). Then maybe we can show you how to do so in Numerology (or, indeed, ask to have Numerology improved in that respect).

[...]

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Originally Posted by RHR View Post
In saying that though I was programming TB303's in the 80's [...]
Heh, the only way to get any kind of groove going on those is to modulate the speed of the clock signal fed into it - alternating between slower/faster speeds every 32th note. But why did you stop?
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  #4  
Old 07-25-2010, 04:41 PM
RHR RHR is offline
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Sjoerd I agree with what your saying.

Posting a sound clip may seem like a good idea but its kind of not really the point as Im not looking for one particular groove style. I just find that when I want to get a particular (perhaps semi standard ) type groove/swing I find it a bit of carry on. The model Jim has got going has much power I feel but I also feel its sophistication can be to much for when you want to get a particular feel. But perhaps a LOT more experience is needed with the software on my part?

Quote:
Heh, the only way to get any kind of groove going on those is to modulate the speed of the clock signal fed into it - alternating between slower/faster speeds every 32th note. But why did you stop?
Well, thats not entirely accurate
I used to use a lot of analog gear years ago (before midi) and getting them all synced up and keeping them in sync was quite a challenge. Some of the gear you would shift timing clocks manually or they would simply do it themselves and sometimes a certain magic could happen. At times those little drifts between the internal sequencers and appreggiators could very often give you a very cool groove. Syncing a 909/808 via dyn sync to a 303 was and still incredibly tight and without any attempt to manipulate the groove that combination just has something about it instantly. Also do keep in mind the 808 and 909 do have a shuffle ability. But not all analog timing was great, and thats what made it all interesting and frustrating

When Midi arrived I started off with a 2 track midi sequencer (Yamaha QX7 I think) and then moved on to an Atari, MPC's and so on. With that gear I could get an even better groove, tighter from an entire song based perspective (the bigger picture so to speak) and what I marvelled at there was that it would be the same every time I loaded up a song.

The reason I got rid of my Polysix, Jupiter 6, Juno 60/Juno 106, Oberheim, 303, 808, Sh101, wasp, Monopoly and a few others synths was just a sign of the times. At one point you could barely sell that stuff for pennies. I dont regret it because it was actually the advent of midi that enabled me to start making records properly. Keeping all that analog stuff in tune and in sync was quite a nightmare. Also consider with something like an Sh101 you had a 100 note sequencer capability. But we managed somehow.

Now I use Daws but If anything I miss the Atari, MPC, Roland samplers hardware set up I had more than my non midi analog days. The Atari/Roland setup may not be as tight as sample accurate Daws but it had soul and I could get that stuff to groove . At times I think I would love to have all that analog gear back again but the reality of having and using them all isnt quite as good as the dream when I think back of all the syncing, tuning and song construction problems. remember we didnt have daws where we could record a bit of analog action here and there. If you were really lucky you had a fostex R8 8 track analogue recorder but most likely a tascam 4 track cassette portastudio. Oh, and that had to be synced up as well using smpte or FSK...Now im really remembering the hassle with it all. It was also incredibly expensive to get in to this and when you were not a signed artist the money spent was basically every penny you had and even then you were nowhere near the quality of the commercial records becasue you didnt have all the outboard and large frame consoles. The consoles and outboard were good back then, and still are. I was making demoes with that gear, and they sounded like it

In saying all that I do think the new analog gear such as the voyager is an excellent investment. But I would not pay the OTT prices for some of that old analog gear. I saw a Jupiter 8 go for about 6,000 recently. It just isnt that good imho.

This software is a bit of nostalgia for me and I find it fun to play around with and kind of marvel at it. What I think I can get from it are those WOW what happened there, particularly on bass lines but to get those I often had to mess around with the timing. When I mess around with the clock on Numerology or the timing sections in the modules I just cant get what Im looking for. But that could easily be down to my inexperience with the software ?
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  #5  
Old 07-25-2010, 07:05 PM
Sjoerd Sjoerd is offline
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Originally Posted by RHR View Post
[...] Some of the gear you would shift timing clocks manually or they would simply do it themselves and sometimes a certain magic could happen. At times those little drifts between the internal sequencers and appreggiators could very often give you a very cool groove.[...]
Ah, I think I now much better understand what you mean there. Nice to read where you're coming from historically, btw. I share a lot of those sentiments.

Well, you asked at the right time. We have just gotten a new toy: the Clock Offset module. While I still have to play with it more to get comfortable with it myself, I think you will find it very handy to do exactly this type off stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RHR View Post
Syncing a 909/808 via dyn sync to a 303 was and still incredibly tight and without any attempt to manipulate the groove that combination just has something about it instantly. Also do keep in mind the 808 and 909 do have a shuffle ability.
Definitely! But the 303 has no shuffle, so I still maintain that the only way to make *those* groove is to shuffle the clock signal. (well, using triplets and skipping every second out of three notes works too, to some extent - but that is technically not really swinging but hard quantized 3/3)

By the way, have you ever tried AudioRealism's emulation plugins of those classic grooveboxes? Almost as good in some respects, much better in some others (such as battery consumption, size and weight for travelling, protection against theft and so on...). They capture most if not all of what the originals had going in the groove department imho. Also (drum roll...): the 303 now has a shuffle knob (it's the tiny black knob in this skin) !!



I do like to use them in 'note mode' with Numerology doing all the sequencing and grooving very much too, still. Which says a lot about Numerology imho: even with such classic step sequencer shuffle 'magic' available, I still most often choose to use Numerology over it.

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Originally Posted by RHR View Post
But not all analog timing was great, and thats what made it all interesting and frustrating [...] [big snip] [...] It just isnt that good imho.
Yeah I hear ya there... And then we're a few decades further down the exciting road of technological innovation, and I can say exactly the same about my 'brand new' all digital Virus TI Polar - the worst thing I have *ever* tried to work with, syncing-wise. Fortunately I still have a couple of 303's below the dust. I also still use, although definitely not on a daily basis (maybe once again if we get a SysEx module :P) the Alpha Juno / MKS-50 that I kept around; I like the way how they combine 'modern' digital control (MIDI, accurate and stable tuning) with analog sound (oscillators, filters) while also being relatively affordable. A sweet spot on the timeline evolving from the analog into the digital era...

Last edited by Sjoerd; 07-25-2010 at 07:14 PM. Reason: fixed typo
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  #6  
Old 07-26-2010, 12:48 AM
jim jim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RHR View Post
Jim, In case you read this...

I read my post back and I dont think I came across properly.

All I mean is when i mess around with the groove sections with a bassline for example I just know that I could get one of those How the hell did he do that I nearly get there.... just not quite and it could be the way the user has to operate?

But its a marvellous piece of software you have.
Thanks!

A few quick tips on adjusting Groove:

When working on 'global' groove, in the GrooveClock module, watch the value of the "Len" (Length) setting, just under the Groove Amount control. That sets the length of the groove pattern in beats. It defaults to 1, which means that only the first 4 'steps' of the groove pattern are in effect (the '1' 'e' '+' 'a'). To get a simple swing, just delay the "e" and "a" a bit.

To make it easier to get finer control over the timing of the GrooveClock, set it up to be a bit more extreme than you want, then use the "groove amound" control to back it down a bit.

The GrooveClock is overdue for an update -- such as making that Length parameter more obvious, allowing for longer patterns, etc.

For tweaking groove on the sequencer modules, it will probably help to hold down the shift key while tweaking groove amounts, that allows you to get finer control over the timing. I'm now thinking that perhaps a 'groove range' setting on the sequencers might also be useful...

Cheers,
Jim
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  #7  
Old 07-26-2010, 04:47 AM
Sjoerd Sjoerd is offline
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Originally Posted by jim View Post
For tweaking groove on the sequencer modules, it will probably help to hold down the shift key while tweaking groove amounts, that allows you to get finer control over the timing.
When you do look at it again in-depth, there's a little quirk: when you use a tablet (instead of mouse, touchpad) to control the pointer, it is as if the shift key is held down (i.e. it defaults to fine tuning).

(PS: rest assured that you already did a much better job than Ableton regarding tablet support - e.g. Live's mixer faders can hardly be controlled with a tablet).
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  #8  
Old 07-27-2010, 10:54 AM
doctorvague doctorvague is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim View Post
To make it easier to get finer control over the timing of the GrooveClock, set it up to be a bit more extreme than you want, then use the "groove amound" control to back it down a bit.
Indeed. Then you can adjust the amount of that groove in the individual sequencers independently and play straight grooves against swing time, etc. That's when things start to get interesting IMO. You can even adjust it per-step if you want. You can also parameter-mod the groove amount slider in the clock stack. Lots of options here, actually. And potential for rhythmic trainwrecks - but sometimes those are fun too.

@Sjoerd - thanks for posting the AudioRealism stuff. I'm going to look into those. That hardware costs a fortune these days!
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  #9  
Old 07-27-2010, 11:48 AM
Sjoerd Sjoerd is offline
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Indeed. Then you can adjust the amount of that groove in the individual sequencers independently and play straight grooves against swing time, etc. That's when things start to get interesting IMO. You can even adjust it per-step if you want. You can also parameter-mod the groove amount slider in the clock stack. Lots of options here, actually. And potential for rhythmic trainwrecks - but sometimes those are fun too.

@Sjoerd - thanks for posting the AudioRealism stuff. I'm going to look into those. That hardware costs a fortune these days!
You're welcome. Also, even considerably cheaper than the plugins: if you have an iP*, the same bassline emulation code, different UI, coupled with (sample based, though) drums also runs as standalone app, and can be bought for the price of a (large) beer. Ultra-portable. Pull an instant acid party from your pocket anywhere. Maybe even better than the real thing!

There is also a bunch of very decent emulations by D16 Group, btw. Since they have a different sound and other some differences, I tend to use both; I consider the AudioRealism ones more realistic, and the drum machine more flexible (you can mix & match 606/808/909 modeled drums and even use samples, making it a bit MPC-like) while (in some respects, conversely) the D16 ones a bit more tweakable (more non-original parameters / parameter range extensions).

Back on topic: one of my more complicated favorites is creating a slight (but system wide synced) variation in rhythm by adding LFOs set to S&H (= random) with low levels (e.g. 0.05), to create tiny offsets for each step on each cycle. A bit of 'humanization', if you will.
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  #10  
Old 07-27-2010, 04:03 PM
jim jim is offline
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Now where did I put that tinfoil hat....
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